thank you :)
sooooooooo, i can go there and listen to van's 'crazy love' and bowie's 'rebel, rebel?'....coolass!!!!merci danke gracias samoooooch!
will give it a look as well
Cool... Rabble rousers RULE!LOL!
hmmmm, tho i don't 'get into it' online like you and jen, i actually clicked to the site... first story said we shouldn't have gun control.... it said how in other nations it's led to gov't control.... one example -> "Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated."i've been to the dachau concentration camp twice... have seen the gas chambers and barracks.... i don't think that jews having guns would've prevented the holocaust... (but i'll check with my friend steve for his opinion.. he spent a couple of years on a kibbutz... saw his best friend get blown up by a hand-grenade in the village square)
Perhaps not, but we don't know for sure and never will."If every Jewish and anti-nazi family in Germany had owned a Mauser rifle and twenty rounds of ammunition and the will to use it, Adolf Hitler would be a little-known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic." --Aaron ZelmanPerhaps Mr. Zelman is somewhat wrong about Hitler being a little known footnote in the history of the Weimar Republic, but his point is a good one because had there been this kind of resistance in Germany, I think it's safe to say history would have been somewhat different. Gun control works for tyrants.
I don't think it would have made a bit of difference.In fact i think the thought of Jews arming themselves would have ramped up the anti- Jew propaganda and local citizens would have armed THEMselves in order to keep the Jews in their place.I'm convinced it would be the same here. Imagine if Muslims or other minority groups were actively and legally arming themselves and holding open training in "safe" gun use all over the country... what you wanna bet most "Americans" would be REALLY nervous. Alarm bells would be ringing all over the Cable news channels, especially FauxNuze... there'd be groups amassing with pitchforks!Guns are used ... or thought to be needed against any "other" and in this country (other being the govt., or people of color, etc).And too many people automatically see "other" as a threat. Enough of it and we're back to the Wild West.
I have no doubt the people who watch cable network news will act as irrational as they do on cable network news in just about any situation. A disarmed society in today's world are nothing more than sitting ducks for future democide. Having NO guns = NO chance. I'd rather take my chances with them, regardless of how slim my possibility of success.
hmmmm.... gun talk going on... okay, got a tune... what i LOVE about this one is that it's got two sons of musical icons.... dylan's kid, jakob, on lead vocals and warren's lad, jordan... (chrome domed, left-handed guit player).... oh, and it's a kickass song, to boot... oh yes, 'the shit has hit the fan'.... ('shit' edited out courtesy of cbs censors... damn their controls!)....
LOL. Sounds just like an ad.
I suppose it is. Maybe I should be working writing script for some add agency or public relations..NOT lol.
one mo' thought re guns-bidness before keerah n' i go visit tutta....you're an anarchist (i think?) with a loving and peaceful heart (i know).... but many aren't... and now typing that, i recall a friend in colorado... her son's went to columbine (one of 'em worked with one of the killers, at a pizza joint)... fortunately my friend's kids weren't injured or killed that day... but i do think there's got to be some measure of legit gun control.... not taking away all the guns, but making them not so easy to get, if all one wants to do is let loose...o'tay.... oh..... lemme know if you've got the commune set up yet.... keerah and i'll at the verrrrrrrrrry least spend a week or three there.... (she'll remember you... and she'll also hope jen's there)...
2 questions..1) how do we make them not so easy to get on the black market (which will always exist)?2) how do we prevent people from making their own (which is not so hard)?
There was a revolution in Germany that started in 1918 and continued sporadically until 1923 and Munich Beer Hall Putsch and the rise of the nazis. What Wikipedia says about that period is interesting I think, especially in the context of a discussion of whether the population of Germany could or would have resisted Hitlerism if they had been armed. The fact is they did. As Wikipedia says:-"The Revolution of 1918/19 is one of the most important events in the later history of Germany, yet it is poorly embedded in the historical memory of Germans. The failure of the Weimar Republic which this revolution brought into being and the following Nazi-era have obstructed the view of these events for a long time. To this very day, the interpretation of these events has been determined more by legends than by facts.Both the radical right and the radical left-–under different circumstances—nurtured the idea that a Communist uprising was aiming to establish a Soviet Republic following the Russian example. The democratic centre parties, especially the SPD, were also barely interested in fairly assessing the events which turned Germany into a Republic. At closer look these events turn out to be a revolution supported by the Social Democrats and stopped by their party leadership. These processes helped to weaken the Weimar Republic from its very beginning."When the armed populace resisting fascism are also members of the Spartacus League or the Communist Party does the same argument hold true? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus_League#The_Spartacist_Manifesto_of_1918Had the socialist republic proclaimed in Germany in 1919 actually taken off, the National Socialist period may well have been avoided, if this revolution had spread across all of Europe then almost certainly WWII would not have happened in the way in which it did, although an endless covert terror campaign would have probably materialised prior to being militarily attacked by the Anglo-American empire, which is of course exactly what had happened when the 'western powers and Japan intervened in the Russian Revolution the year before. The western allies withdrew in 1920. The Japanese stayed in the Maritime Provinces of the Russian Far East until 1922 and in northern Sakhalin until 1925, when U.S. economic and diplomatic pressure, internal Japanese politics and the Red Army's military success forced Japan's withdrawal from Russia.Its not just a matter of who holds the weapons, but who finances the opposition is a factor too. Gandhi demonstrates the first point and Gadaffi demonstrated the second I think.The reasons for Nazism and the fascist Axis and the fate of those who challenged it was determined by who was backing what......the Second World War was only made possible by the partnership between the worlds biggest corporations Standard Oil, General Motors, Ford and IG Farben. Not a single bomber would have flown or one single tank rolled were it not for these investors, just as the Holocaust would have been unthinkable on the planned industrial scale without the constant customer care and meticulous death camp after sales service from IBM.Its one thing to have the guns its another thing altogether to know who has to be shot.
"Anarchism does not mean bloodshed; it does not mean robbery, arson, etc. These monstrosities are, on the contrary, the characteristic features of capitalism. Anarchism means peace and tranquility to all." --August Spies, Haymarket anarchist
They did arm themselves Jen, they called themselves the Stern Gang and we mustn't continue to overlook the special relationship between Hitler's National Socialism regime and Zionism which the Nazis supported. Its a lot murkier than it is presented in our black and white official history. For example according to the True Torah"Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained "we must, above all, make it an international political issue."Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome "final solution of the Jewish question."In his "Diaries", page 19, Herzl stated "Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies."Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo.Hitler himself personally supported Zionism During the 1930's, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine.As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized "Kibbutz" training camps over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of "Israel".http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/nazisupport.cfmSo the fact is some Jews were armed but unfortunately for millions of other Jews, Communists, Socialists, Freemasons, Jehovah Witnesses, Gypsies the physically and mentally disabled people, lesbians and gay men.... most the tooled up Jews were on the Nazis side committed to kicking the British out of Palestine and colluding with the Third Reich in many areas in order to do it.
Now they tell me.... I'm going give it up then Mavis..... what a let down it has all been :-(
Personally speaking, if the time comes, I'll know...Thanks for the history lesson AA. Some of which I'm quite aware, some of it not so much, but I appreciate you sharing it.
I love you AaranAardvaark!
That's probably what all those people who've shot their own children (coming in late at night) and other innocent people unfortunate enough to trespass on their property thought.Just sayin... hindsight AND foresight are 20/20... It's the immediacy of the situation that can be a bummer!
Wow, you sure do say some really silly stuff.. Check this out Jen.. if someone is coming into my home, I'll be sure to say WHO GOES THERE before I shoot, so in case it's the tooth fairly I will not have shot for nothing. Also, I wonder what % of women who have been raped in their homes wish they had a gun when it was happening to them, speaking of hindsight.... just sayin'
Just sayin... Maybe YOU would... maybe.BUT those people who HAVE shot first (as in the tragic case of the man just a few months ago who shot and killed his son) probably had the same high ideals.I just don't believe in saying what you'd "never" do.One never knows, do one?
Also wonder how many women... or anyone else is so .... terrified that they sleep with their hand on their gun under their pillow.Many cases of rape and robbery and child abduction have happened as the victim(s) slept.Fat lot of good their guns would have done.
Gee wizz from new social web site to gun control issues. See what ya'll do when I leave the room? :p
initially, i just came to play a tune....back i go to the post-land of family/friends/travels/music..... oh, and virginesque painters...
Jen, I speak as an individual... What the hell do you want me to say? If any person that does not live here tries to come in without permission I will shoot them. I'm not going to look at a few tragic cases and say, well there ya have it, I guess I better turn in my guns. It's unfortunate that a child is shot and killed because a parent was an irresponsible gun owner, but I assure you, I'm not him. Tragic things happen all the time, but you seem to be someone who will take a 000000.97% example and try to make a case. I know many thefts, assaults etc, happen when people are sleeping and such. I never once said that guns are a 100% guaranteed assurance of safety. I'm not someone who is going to be without EVERY possible defense just in case. I take a better to be safer than sorry approach. Society is collapsing Jen, arm yourself while you still can. The police cannot protect you, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make bad people stop doing bad things. This is the world in which we live. I just choose to accept the reality.
I'm a follower (casual mostly) of Buddhist thought and take the philosophy of "it is what it is".I have managed to live just shy of 60 years on this planet, a large part of it in what would be called the inner city or the "ghetto".In all that time i have never once been in a threatening position of any kind.Call it luck.Call it being smart, sensible and safe in my thoughts, actions, whereabouts, and attitude.But if my time comes i "hope" the authorities are there to protect me if i can't protect myself with the means available to me.But i will not let fear change who i essentially am. A lover of peace. I won't insist that everyone arm themselves to the teeth because there are just too many nut cases out there, and i don't mean the criminals. I foresee days like the old West where simple disputes will be settled by a gunshot. It just follows when you have a large number of gun owners.It's already happening badly enough now. Imagine a barroom brawl, a fight at a sporting event (ever been to a Giants / Eagles game? ;-) )I guess we'll just agree to disagree.I'm with David.Have your guns... but just as we who want to drive have to PROVE we are eligible and capable of doing so safely and in accordance with the law, so should those who want to own guns.Just as those who insist that ID is now required to vote, then ID should be required to own weapons.Don't think that's too much to ask.
Well Jen, we do see it quite differently. Gun ownership does not equate to fear. It does not elevate one to nutcase status, nor does it mean someone is not a lover of peace, and I don't know anyone who insists people arm themselves to the teeth. If ever you own a gun, it will not change the essential nature of your being, I assure you. We've had large numbers of gun owners for many many years, yet we haven't been transported back to 1870. So I'm not sure where you get the idea that it just follows? You couldn't pay me to attend a Giants/Eagles game, but interesting you bring it up because a few years ago when those people were nearly beat to death for wearing the wrong jersey, one responsible gun owner could have prevented that. Also, the comparison between driving and guns is a real bad one. I don't know where you get the idea that just because someone manages to get a piece of plastic that somehow that = proof of ability. Have you ever driven on the Beltway there on the East Coast, or Chicago at rush hour? They may have passed a test in accordance with the law, but that in no way proves capability. And on ID, I'm not sure about the laws in every state, but I had to show ID (which was scanned into FBI database), and I was fingerprinted, and had to fill out a questionnaire of about 2000 questions. I wasn't OK with feeling like I was being booked into jail, but I accepted it. My actions everyday of my life prove I'm eligible. I have never fired my gun outside of the range where I was trained to shoot it and don't plan to. No one outside of my home (except people online) knows I have one. It's never around children. I follow the laws I'm required to. But still, you don't seem to be able to acknowledge the reality of the situation in that people can make guns, and the black market will always exist. You insist on believing that restrictions, and control, and whatever else is the answer - but it's not.
I have a small rifle that I've never fired. I bought bullets to see if it would shoot but never got round to it. I suppose it needs cleaning but I don't know how (it was left here by my daughter when she moved out, someone gave it to her and she never tried it out either) One day when I was looking for the bullets to practice with it, I couldn't remember where I had put them. Someone let me carry a pistol to the woods with me one day because I wanted to see what it felt like to carry a pistol and it scared the snot out of me to have it so I came back home and never touched one again. I went camping without one, but I knew my son-in-law had one so I didn't figure I needed it. He brings it when he visits and keeps it in the holster on top of the fridge. I won't look at it. I keep meaning to get something and try to get accustomed to how the feel and how to shoot one, but honestly I'm just afraid of them. I am not afraid of people who have them who are responsible gun owners, my brother has a cabinet full of hunting rifles, my Mom has a small shot gun that she has never fired and the one time she did own a pistol she almost put her eye our with it shooting at a hawk because she didn't have sense enough not to site it up at her face!!! My ex has had guns always and he got drunk once and while I was driving him home he pulled it out of the glove box and began shooting out the window at random and that scared me to death! I'm pretty certain that all my neighbors have them because I live out in the countryside far removed from town and the biggest city (if you can call it that) is 2 hours drive away. I hardly ever lock my doors and my car keys stay in the car all the time unless for some reason I take them into the house. It's not on my list of things to do right away but one day I might decided to get one. Or I might find those bullets and try out that rifle.
This statement demonstrates the massive gulf between American culture and everyday life here in the UK....it is gap that is absolutely unbridgeable I believe, a completely different mindset in either place.Despite the fact we speak the same language we may as well exist on different planets I think She. If you lived anywhere in the UK .... by now I suspect your house would be surrounded by police marksmen and there would be a helicopter hovering overhead... Incredible really but we are I think two societies separated by a common language where the points of contact are actively diminishing at a cultural if not on the personal level :-)
I know these people. It pisses me off quite a bit when they behave like that. I have a specific friend who every time he gets mad about something he will grab his rifle and pretend to be shooting whatever.. I never find it funny, but he thinks he's being hilarious. I don't honestly think the guy would ever shoot anyone, he just likes to act like a madman. I don't know, people are weird.. I don't even like guns, I'm not what you would call a "gun enthusiast"... You sound a lot like my mother and girlfriend, Sheila. I guess everyone just has to act according to how they feel? I was not comfortable at all when I first purchased, but after a rather lengthy training course, and many days of practice at the range, it now comes naturally. I did struggle with the whole idea of shooting to kill during the self defense part. Despite what I was taught in that regard, I do think if someone were coming in my home that I would verbally warn them first, then shoot to injure, and if both of those fail, shoot to kill. I've told my instructor that and he said bad idea, that I should do as the law allows. But I believe what Ron Paul said is correct when he said "Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense".. I believe I'm only justified to kill if the situation escalates to phase 3, even though in heated debate I have stated otherwise at times. Anyway, you should get the rifle out and clean it Sheila, even if you don't want to shoot it. I'm sure there are numerous videos and PDF files out there for viewing which will demonstrate proper technique if you're not sure how? :)
And when tyranny escalates out of control, and we're quickly approaching that, it will be the Americans who have the means to at least try and fight for their freedom. In Europe, I suppose the Swiss will as well. So many people in Europe are simply naive. I'm all for changing the culture here in America, but I have not heard one reasonable suggestion from you. I have made a suggestion, such as the hypocrites in Hollywood stop glorifying gun violence, but I don't suspect we'll see that anytime soon. How do you lessen the massive gulf?
I wouldn't.....I couldn't
Then why point it out? Believe it or not AA, most Americans understand that there are massive cultural differences. I don't like the violence obsessed culture in America at all. But I didn't create it, but rather was born into it, and if I believed my turning in guns would start a non violent Gandhi like moment in America I would do so today. But I live in reality and know full well that there will likely never be a solution to the problem, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna be the one sitting here twiddling my thumbs when societies inevitable collapse comes. I'm always open to suggestions? I will share them with my neighbors, I will post bulletins at the school, I will make DVD's. I want less guns, less violence, but I don't have a clue what to do.
I live in a country where the government gives guns to Mexican drug cartels, then blames gun owners. The same government lets drugs into the country, then locks us up for using them. This county needs to WAKE UP!!
And I agree with that Aaran, we do. I happen to like your culture and would live there for sure if it were not for your weather...I don't like the cold and damp lol. But really, the point I was trying to make is this. I don't even think about that rifle. I didn't buy it, although I bought the bullets for it and the only time I even thought about using it was the time my neighbor's pack of dogs charged at me with their hackles up and teeth barred to "get" me even though I was in my own yard! But I quickly reasoned that I would simply not be able to kill something. The problem was eventually solved without violence and killing because after I had a reasonable chat with my neighbor about the liability she would face if her dogs were to actually attack me or my grandchildren, she built a bit lot for them and there they stay. Whew!